we're screwed...

[tickdoc]

literally. Been in a loveless marriage for a while now and have been trying hard to make it work.
I love her, and she loves me, but she is not "in love with me" Heard that before?

Well, now we messed up and had sex with friends of ours....don't ever do that. Not nearly as much fun as it looks.

We may not make it out this time and I'm curious if any others have been through this and survived intact.

[ThunderHorse]

There are many couples that survive swapping. There are websites that are for coupes that like to swing.

The recommendations are usually that your raltionship with your wife should be strong. There should be openess, sensitivity and honesty. Swinging should be done only with full, complete permission, and anyone should be able to limit the action, to their sensitivites and preferences.

Search Swinging, Swingers, swingtown, Swapping, Swappers.

What seem to be the issues. You seem to think that the issues you are encountering are difficult and foreseeable.

I would start by making sure that everyone agrees that anything further is only with the permission of all concerned. That the issue at hand is to work through the issues that were not foreseen. The issue of secrfecy, your reputations, and how to cdover your tracks, or explain the situation to people with whom honesty has been decided upon, or occured unintentionally.

It seems that once the issue is something that happened last week, Last Month, or last year, or 10 years ago, that the issue will fall into perspective.

Marriages usually stay together for financial resourse reasons, not so much for Love. So Love is what you make it.

Can you give your wife some compliments? I enjoy your....? You are good at ....?

Can you so some chores around the house? Can you make things in the household more pleasant? Can you listen to your wife's feelings of disappointments? Can you acknowlege any part you might have ahd in adverse decisions? Misread communications?

So now you are swingers, Congratulations! More than I can handle, personally. I don't feel my marriage is strong enough to handle that additonal stress.

Best of Luck!

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[tickdoc]

the swinging was just an attempt for us to see if we could find some excitement. Our problems are way more than that, it was just the thing that brought all of our other issues to a head.

I am not the typical guy and she is not the typical girl. We were childhood sweethearts and have been together over 22yrs. we know each other very well, love and respect each other, but she is not interested in me anymore sexually. We have been trying to have more frequent sex, but her passion is just not there and it has become chore for her.

Maybe I should've started this post differently.

One major problem we have is that she does not see me as "manly" enough. I am too loving, too emotional, too helpful. I don't see myself that way, but she does, so our roles are reversed somewhat.

Another is that she wants to go "findherself" not so much sexually as just find herself in general.

It used to work great, but not anymore.

Anyone have any opinions or exerience there? She seems incistant that unless I change, there is no chance she could ever be attracted to me, hat the type of guy she wants is not the type of guy I am. I think the problem is hers just as muc as mine. she and I react the way we do for a reason, and she will have to change too ifthat is whatshe really wants.

We are going to counseling now, but I don't know if it is too late , or if either of us is patient enough to wait and learn what we need to do to change things.

Sucks, because she is the perfect person for me in my eyes.

[ThunderHorse]

Finding herself, and finding Mr. Right sounds familiar.


Have you made a list of what you would like her to change?

Most men have burried their true desires under years of sedeways glances, and "Oh Relally???" Comments from W.

W is not giving you the UNDEERSTANDING of your sexual desires. Put that on your list.

How do you contradict your wife? When your wife is wrong, how do you tell her she is wrong?

Women don't understand what men want, and Women beagt up on men so that women don't have to give men what they want.

Do you know what your wife wants? You should know what she wants, and tell her wsha it is, and how much YOU are giving her what SHE wants. Chapter 4, Kow Your Wife.

Women want COUPLE:

Closeness

Openness

Understanding

Loyalty

Esteem

Maybe something else, Leadership.

Here is a Link to my thread under TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF.

Chapter 10, is intruduce yourself.

You are not getting ther respect yhou deserve, 90% guaranteed.


CHAIRS

Conquest
Heirarchy
Authority
Insight
Relationship
Sexuality.

You need to identify when you are getting walked on, and figure out an interruption to create.


Saying your wife is the ideal woman for you, creates the impression that you do not have the skills to form another relationship.

My wife said she wanted me to move out. I responded, "Well sometimes things don't work out." I have confidence that I have enough skills to be a good lover/cpmpanion for any number of other women. I was not intimidated by my wife's threat, or tiral balloon, or whatever it was.

Have you read 180 Degeee Divorce Busters?

People get divorced because they believe the spouse won't change.

What is easy to change? Change for the sake of changing. What would be better to improve for you?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin ... 000476;p=0

You are complaining about sex from your wife, but you are not discussing her times of asrousal, and you are not discussing your massage skills. Sex is something your wife should beg for, because you have her so hot, at her highest arounsal time, that she can't stand it.

Have you taken the Silva Mind Control Course? That lets you control better when you wake up or go to sleep.

I covered a number of areas, so there are some errors in my suggestions. Kick me back.

Are ther kids? Have you taken parenting course, watched Parenting DVD's, Tapes? What is going on with the kids?


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[tickdoc]

I definitely could stand to act in that way to see what the response is and will give it a try.

I have been way too desperate/needy in my reaction to all of this.

We have two young kids 6 and 8, and they do not know any of this yet, except for briefly catching us argue once and noticing that daddy sleeps in the guest room now. (which they think uis because I snore)

That is my next question. What about the kids? I find it hard keeping my morale up around the house. She is good at playing indifference but I am not. My emotions are either sad, despondant, or angry, with not much in between. I think I need to move away for a bit. It is the strongest message I could send right now. School starts next week which should be fun as well.

I am havingthe hardest time with my kids, like I said. I love 'em to tears but am just having a hard time enjoying my time with them through this. Any ideas there? (I would expect the opposite to be true and it bugs me)

BTW, Thanks for the response.

Oh, as for some more info...I am the one to always cave and give in. If you look us up in the dictionary, she is yin and I am yang. I thought it was what made us work so well in so many ways, but it backfires when she takes on a more manly role. eg: she is quick to anger and I am passive and want to cool off before making decisions. She is cold and does not like to be touched/comforted, I do. etc.

She wants to find herself, so maybe if I am the one to leave, that will send a clear message.

Looks like I may be packing my bags.

[ThunderHorse]

Leaving is certainly being assertive.

But I suggest that you find other ways to be assertive.

You mention your Anger. You mention arguing. You mention giving in.


"I will pick up the newspapers, but I would like you to thing about helping with the dishes after dinner."

My formula is to taked the opportunity of giving in, as a platform from which to make a further request.

My personal formula is that I try to have exit phrases ready, so if I lose my temper, I can summarize my point and leave the house for a few hours, or overnight. Try to keep jealousy out of the picture. Is ther someplace you can spend overnight, where you can be reached, if needed?

You can train your family. Your wife is probably manipulating your daughters to have feelings against you. See PAS, Parental Alienation Syndrome. "O daddy is just an unreasonable person." when your wife has manipulated you to lose your temper.

List out what you are doing for the household. Many women plan for he husband to keep working and supportingthe household.



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[ThunderHorse]

You are not taking the view that you are a leader of your wife's habits.

If you are sad and angry, and losing arguments, then your wife must have developed some bad habits of being disrespectful and inconsiderate to you.

You are not in touch with your wife's bad habits, because Women are generally on different priorites than men, for social interaction. You need to take responsiblity for letting your wife know she is being disrespectful to you, and this wil not be easy, because women have little clue about what hurts men's egos.

How can your wife be more respectful in little things?

What are you doing for your wife, that she is not expressing appreciation?

I asked my wife the other day when she was complainig about something, "I thought you would appreciatetthat I took two evenings to supervise the plumber who put in the plumbing for the new sinks you had installed. I suggested upgrades for the sink stopper, that the old sinks had problems. I thought I would be receiving Love and Appreciation, and today, I hear unhappy complaints." My wife changed from her complaining mode, and gove me some appreciative comments. You have to ask for appreciation, and you have to point it out to them what you are doing for them.



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[tickdoc]

I am the giver and she is the taker.

she is quick to anger and I like to slow cook my thoughts.

she is the saver and I am the spender.

She is emotionally detatched (never seen her cry at a movie) and I am not ( I can cry on command like a soap star)

She is ocd, and I am a little aloof and a bit of a procrastinator.

And some on sex:

We both feel and have felt like we have a great relationship in most areas except one...sex.

We both love sex, but she is not attracted to me. We both get off when we do it, but there has been no emotional attatchment to it lately (3 yrs maybe).

She feels like I am still an immature child when it comes to sex like we were when we were young (we started at 16).

I fee like I m a stud and a good catch. I do feel like I am not allowed to take charge, though. It is ALWAYS initiated by her. I cannot suggest it or plan for it or it will not happen.

She thinks that her primal attraction for me is not there and that she is now at a point inherlife where she needs that, or that she canot deny herself any longer.

I know we have some power struggle issues and bad habits, but if you ranked our satisfactionin other areas of our life, it is really good. We both share chores, we share raising our kids and make family time a priority, we are respectful to each other in most areas.

I was the "safe choice" for her many years ago. She took her mother's advice and married me knowing all of that because she trusted her mother when she said "don't do what I did." Her mother was rebelious and left home at 16 to marry a rebel. three kids and many beatings later she left him for another, her dad. she left him too when my wife was only 3. She then spent years sleeping with a new guy every night and going on tirades. Then she remarried again late in life to a drunk useless bum and divorced him prior to her death. Always unhappy, depressed and broke, my wife saw that I would never be any of those guys to her and overlooked her basic attraction to me thinking she would fall in love with me later.

It has been like that ever since.

I offer her safety and security. She offers me great friendship and I worship her. I am very prod of what she has done with her life, despite her unhapiness.

I feel that she has some deep emotional issues that need to be addressed (and 'm sure I do too) thatwe can work through this, but she is not interested in that.

So here we are, zombies passing each ther in the house. We talk but not about this anymore. Another counseling session is scheduled for friday wit someone new. She doesn't want to talk about it til then.

I have also considered a marriage builders weekend course to see if that would help. It is expensive, but I'll pay whatever to tryto get things fixed.

Any thoughts?

[ThunderHorse]

Thanks for the additional details.

Have you searched Love and Respect? There are some DVD's, or a CD set, that are less expensive than a Marriage Builders weekend.

My mind returns to Foreplay


There are a whole range of activfities that can serve as foreplay.

A woman is often not attracted to a man, until furhter in the stages of foreplay.

I searched Foreplay.

http://www.fundiscoveries.com/sex-advic ... -woman.htm

There are more hits. Flowers or just doing something nice, but simple, for her or the kids.

Foreplay for women starts a day or two before sex.

Chapter 9 of the Men's Secrets book.

For me, touching my wife's breast for 3 seconds, or her rump roast, just out of the blue. With kids around, it could be massaging her back, or neck for 3 seconds. An overlooked part of the neck is the connection of the neck muscles to the skull, 2 inches form the neck, at the bottom of the skull.

Just create 3 seconds of pressure, then release.

Do you know about the alluvial canal? Down the middle of the back is the spine. You can feel the rounded points of the vertebrae bones. Down the middle, outside the two inch middle of the back, maybe about 2 inch strip on each side of the vertebrea, is a muscle area, called the Alluvial canal. You can press quite hard, and deep in this area, You can use a thumb on one side, and your fingers reaching across to the Alluvial canal on the other side of the back. You can go up and down the back.

I have a trigger massage wheel, if I am lazy.

Find earlier stages of foreplay, like massage, like giving her a compliment. "You are so smart."

Compressing a large muscle for a few seconds, and releasing, releases Endorphins, which create arounsal.

THERAPY:

You can use therapy for discussing her problems. Sounds like she has a lot of past issues to go over.

You can look for times when she felt mistaken, or surprised, and let her talk about that experience.

You can lead the threapy by asking questions to let your wife release her feelings.
what would yuou like to have, what would yo like to do, what kind of a future would youlik for hte children?

You can use thrapy as a take-charge approach. The therapist my ask you what you want. I have recommended that you create alist of what you want. But I wold not use that list in therapy. You might avoid doing anything the therapist asks, or agreeing to anything in the therapy session. "Well I will give that some thought, but what occurs to me now is that there may have been some unexpected situations in the past, that surprised my wife, and may be interfering with her feeling of appreciation for me."

If you feel you need therapy, I would get that separately. Make your marriage therapy about your wife.

Make a note of any suggestions the threapist makes, for you. Any suggestions so far?

You have not mentioned rejections of your foreplay.

What are the earliest stages of forfeplay that you can recognize?

How can you attempt to impliment any of these early stages?

How does your foreplay get rejected? How can you modify your approach?

You say you CAN'T initiate foreplay. Are you comfortable with repeated rejections of early stages of foreplay? How can you handle these rejctions more gracefully? Do you have the image, that each three second squeeze of a large muscle releases more endorphins, so a rejection of 1, 3 or 5 presses, is irrelevant? Arousal is occuring regardless of any verbal rejection or push away? Are you making your squeeze sufficinetly short to avoid a verbal rejection? What is your wife's re-approach period? My wife is 3 minutes. Some women are 7 minutes. Do you know that women wipe their slate clean, much faster than men?

Tim Downs said on the radio, Focus on the Family, that a husband may think he has 50 or a thousand points in his wife's account, for past good behavior. Tim said the reality is that your account balance gets zeroed out at least everyday. It is what have you done for me lately? or Today. or this afternoon?


You may be thinking that you have earned an emotional reserve, and your wife has recently wiped your slate clean, and you have to start over, with a few little things, all over again.




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